It was crystal clear. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. I do know that most Christian people do believe that Christ died for them out of love for them, not to satisfy a wrathful entity who despises them. Yes, there sure is. You are correct. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. And taking insulin doesnt have a continual negative effect on my choices and behaviour; quite the reverse. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee) RC Jr does. Medications did not help me, either. I am not an alcoholic. I agree with R.C. I described this happening upthread. Has that been reported on or discussed? Some might call it being accountable. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. We dont know. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. Thats the importance of getting them into treatmentand then waiting, praying, and not enabling. His boozing and chronic bully behavior was going on long before the family tragedies. Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. We heard stories of them being looked down on because a son or daughter was involved in drugs, alcohol, sex and other issues. Interesting you can say this. (caps and emphasis intended). (California) In that case, the hurting people reference is not applicable and its spin off allusions are incorrect and misleading. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Its not uncommon for conversations to turn sour when people who care deeply about a topic find themselves talking past each other. link. Barbra said that R.C. Wow, Deb. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Let's see if RC Sproul, Jr. responds to my comment to him on FB: https://t.co/dOb0FR3YuC pic.twitter.com/he6sReOvPD, Julie Anne (@DefendTheSheep) March 27, 2019, Scout, Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. I wouldnt step foot in a church that wasnt trained to deal with the big issues, including substance abuse, and just kicked people out. The scene was an absolute tidal wave of love. Dr. R.C. also claimed a bunch of other nonsense, none of it true in how help works.). from her when she kept on and on telling us that we were wrong to take the view we took about codependency. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Please stop? http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. 13 God judges[b] those outside. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. Thats not going to happen to a church CEO within the church over which he presides. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. RC Sproul Jr fostered a culture of heavy drinking at St. Peter Presbyterian Church, not just with church members but also with the pastors he invited to his "Pastor Camps" (open barswere the norm). Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. Ive had people pressure me to drink when Ive gone to parties (when they see me standing there sans drink in hand), and Ive had a few people ask me if Im a recovering alcoholic. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? I was looking for that recently. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. They dont either. The father may be in just as much help as the son from experts who deal with alcoholics and from free groups like Al-Anon, for the family and friends of alcoholism. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. Thanks Gram3 for your explanation of the damage that R.C. No doubt RC Sproul Jr is breathing a huge sigh of relief that he will not have to face a full criminal trial before a jury. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. Velour wrote: It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. My mother couldnt believe I was home so early, lol. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. For instance, Ive no control over my basal insulin requirement; if I take too much Ill be hypoglycaemic (albeit mildly) in the morning, and if I take too little, my glucose levels will be high (albeit much less than they were when I was diagnosed!). I think its the same person. if this current bout of drinking heavily was a continuance of grieving, he could use: @ Velour: Sounds like something an enabling father would say, doesnt it? R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. It has nothing to do with the point that blaming the father for the sins of the son is not logical To say the least . However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. I have always considered this site to be , for the most part, a discernment ministry that is pretty fair and doesnt make unsubstantiated allegations for the purpose of harming or hurting. Am very familiar with alcoholism, drug abuse. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Had therapy and continues to do so. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. Deb said: Back in 1972 shoulder seat belts werent installed in vehicles. She refused help that was quietly offered. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. His addiction did not force him to drive, and his addiction did not force him choose alcohol rather than treatment, assuming he was actually addicted. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. R.C. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. I was responding to her about that. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Or would you see the situation differently? The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] This is beyond shocking to me. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. I see that, Velour. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. His wife passed away from cancer in December 2011. He was bored. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? I may or may not have had a glass of wine after reading this thread. I received a thank you today from someone who has just such a struggle, is a Christian, and lurks here. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. And he is correct in that drunkenness is a sin but drinking wine is not forbidden. I respectfully disagree. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. I mentioned in a post on there that your blog (among a few other ones Ive seen) either ban the use of the word or topic of Codependency, or make the incorrect claim that it is victim blaming.. With RC Jr I just dont ever see him getting professional help, let alone sobering up for good. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheeps clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. I communicated directly with one of his children and received confirmed that this quote was from one of them (and also received permission to post it here). JYJames, thank you so much for posting that scripture reference and the phrases in it. Of people for years Christian, and lurks here behavior was going vesta ann sproul obituary. 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